Curse

Cab Tastic · Apr 11, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24

[QUOTE=Fril Estelin]
I'd rather believe Gaile than you honestly. As most people will.
QUOTE]

But the capacity to have our own point of view based on OBSERVATION is what makes us human. All the evidence points to the opposite of Anet's stance.

Don't get me wrong, Anet do a great job with this game. I admire them a lot. However this is one area I believe they messed up big time.

cebalrai · Apr 11, 2008, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cab Tastic

Given that 99% of all items in the game will not change in price if LS is removed how do you feel that being relatively poor to one who farms will disadvantage you?

Yes, absolutely. Anet feels the same way I do too, per their statements.

Change in price for those 99% of items isnt the whole story. Assume 100% of items stay the same price for a moment. The non-LS solo farmer gets to buy EIGHT TIMES the amount of that stuff that's staying the same price.

If I'm poor relative to a non-LS solo farmer (assuming the same hours/skill/dedication/effort/experience), then we end up playing a different game. That solo farmer gets virtually all they want for all their characters and heroes, while I can afford much less, despite the identical effort.

In fact, I have to play a whopping EIGHT hours for every hour they put in. They equip eight characters/heroes for my every one. Or they get eight times more rare/interesting/attractive gear as me. I have to grind eight times longer than that person for cash. A three-hour after after school/work session by that farmer requires me to play for an entire 24 hour period without sleeping - just to break even with them. However you want to look at it.

This makes me less successful at the game relative to that farmer. And remember that success is all relative as well.

reetkever · Apr 11, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I'm not, hence no need to remove LS!

Let's stop being so selfish. Even though the removal of the LS does not harm you, you want to keep it just because YOU can make enough cash?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I'd rather believe Gaile than you honestly. As most people will.

Actually, the fact that Loot Scaling came a few hours BEFORE Exemption List is common knowledge, and I am surprised that not everyone knows this, even though they claim to know what LS is about. Besides, Gaile is known to have made alot of errors (Which wasn't her fault, but was caused due to misinformation or the lack of information). Don't forget that Gaile is just a 'messenger' who might not even have a clue what is happening in the game. Did you also trust her when she said there were no Polar Bears, even though they clearly exist? But let's stop this argument before we're talking about Polar Bears soon. Just get your facts straight about the LS/Exemption List and we'll be able to talk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Efficient does not only depend on the outcome, but on the method. You can get 50k a day by doing the 6k-a-day method 8 times!

I don't see the point you're trying to make. The methods are obviously different, because casual players don't spend hours and hours farming because they actually play the game. 6K a day 8 times means you get50K in 8 days where other people get 400K in that time. In either way, the Hardcore farmers win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

They don't have to, I know I didn't and I'm far from expert or smart at the game.

They don't HAVE to. People don't HAVE to play Guild Wars at all. This is such a worthless claim. Just because people don't HAVE to have fun, doesn't mean they should not GET it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

Okay, so... by your logic more money equals more fun. Therefore the game should be changed so that people make how much per hour then? 50k? 150k? Some people would like to make 200k per hour. That way they'd never have to grind for cash. And they could buy all they want on all their characters without having to play the game much.

Reetkever, give us a figure that you think is appropriate? Simply saying MO MONEY MO MONEY IN THE NAME OF FUN is kinda silly.

Seriously, how much per hour?

And then email your suggestion to Anet IMO.

Again, learn to read. I JUST stated that 6K a DAY is enough to make me happy. It's the situation before the LS. The fact that more money makes more people happy... Honestly, how can you not see this? It's obvious that different players have different interests. Especially after beating the game, alot of people want to do other things. And everything in the game that isn't storyline costs money. Without that money, it's impossible to participate in these things, so only more Storyline can be done. If people have more money to spend, they can do more things in the game. Someone likes to Chest run, others like to collect a special kind of sword, for example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

You just called yourself a bad player. Scads of other people are doing way better.

IMO, you are a bad farmer and should not be rewarded for your poor play. Instead, you should get better at GW. That way you'll be a decent player and get decent rewards for your decent play.

No, sir. You just confirmed that you did not read ANYTHING about the situation at hand, and you just blindly troll people without any information.

Being good or bad at Guild Wars does not affect drops. Only the TIME played in Guild Wars affects drops. I do not have the time to make 50K+ in a day, and neither does any other casual player. Becoming a hardcore player is out of the question, and therefore all the good farm runs are out of reach.

reetkever · Apr 11, 2008, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

Yes, absolutely. Anet feels the same way I do too, per their statements.

Change in price for those 99% of items isnt the whole story. Assume 100% of items stay the same price for a moment. The non-LS solo farmer gets to buy EIGHT TIMES the amount of that stuff that's staying the same price.

If I'm poor relative to a non-LS solo farmer (assuming the same hours/skill/dedication/effort/experience), then we end up playing a different game. That solo farmer gets virtually all they want for all their characters and heroes, while I can afford much less, despite the identical effort.

In fact, I have to play a whopping EIGHT hours for every hour they put in. They equip eight characters/heroes for my every one. Or they get eight times more rare/interesting/attractive gear as me. I have to grind eight times longer than that person for cash. A three-hour after after school/work session by that farmer requires me to play for an entire 24 hour period without sleeping - just to break even with them. However you want to look at it.

This makes me less successful at the game relative to that farmer. And remember that success is all relative as well.

In other words... You are just very jealous because people that WORK for their cash get more than you, even though you are doing NOTHING for your cash.

So, what's your opinion about the Hardcore farmers that make ~20x as much as you per day WITH the LS? You don't seem to care about them at all. You want to kill casual farming because they make a little bit of cash, but you don't care about the Hardcore farmers that can make 50K a day without any problems.

I don't get you... You have to play 25 hours a day doing the storyline to keep up with the hardcore farmers these days, so how do you live with that?

Gli · Apr 11, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

I never said that the majority of the Guild Wars players were voting here, and it was not the point I was trying to make. Some people here dare to claim that I am the ONLY one in whole Guild Wars that has trouble making money, which is obviously not the case.

I claimed you're the only one explicitly complaining, in written word, that you're having trouble making money. Maybe I missed someone, but most if not all the other anti-loot scaling folks have a different reason for wanting it removed, like having more fun when more stuff drops. Not being able to make enough money to get by in GW, that's just... pathetic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Then, why do all the pro-LS people tell us to do the storyline for cash?

I don't think anyone ever said that. It has been claimed that playing the storyline gives you enough cash to get by, in response to your claims of the opposite. I frankly don't care what you do to make cash. I just know that I wouldn't know what to do to generate the kind of cash flow problems you claim to have. I can't seem to do anything at all in this game without generating a decent income.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

They should understand that most people have the storyline beaten by now, and want to have different forms of income than the storyline. The fact that alot of the pro-LS people here tell us that THEY get money from playing the game, is enough proof that they are actually doing missions for the storyline. If it's their first time, they're the ones having no experience in this game yet, which is not the case I believe.

You continually misrepresent what people say. It all started when you claimed playing the storyline didn't generate enough cash, and that you had to augment your 'income' with casual farming. Some people piped in claiming they feel the storyline does generate enough income. That's all. No one told you to just play the storyline for cash. I wouldn't recommend this thing you call 'casual farming' though, because it appears to suck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

It's enough for me too, that's why I want to get rid of LS so people can actually OBTAIN this kind of money without grinding for 5 hours in a row. As matters are now, one gets only 100-200 gold from a solo farm run, when lucky that is. I would have to grind my @$$ off for just 5K. The situation I sketched was the situation BEFORE Loot Scaling. BEFORE LS, one could make ~6K a day, and it would take a few months buying FoW armour.

100-200 gold from a solo farm run? That's... odd. Either you're a liar, doing something really unproductive, or just the unluckiest person ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

This is simply not true, as the Exemption List was added AFTER the Loot Scaling. It was added because the prices of items were raising drastically. Gaile might have been asleep at that time or something. I experienced it myself, though.

The exemption list was added ONE DAY LATER. Any price development you may have witnessed during that time was more likely to be inspired by mass hysteria than anything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Indeed, Guild Wars is a game. Should people grind and grind for hours just to get some cash? Is it that hard to just give players an easier way to get cash?

Or perhaps those players could align their efforts with their expectations, and do something to be more efficient at farming for cash? Because it can be done.

Fril Estelin · Apr 11, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cab Tastic

But the capacity to have our own point of view based on OBSERVATION is what makes us human. All the evidence points to the opposite of Anet's stance.

Don't take it personally, but such a subjective statement cannot work out in a discussion. I may as well say "narrowminded people lack perspective to realise their condition". Or "greedy people will say anything to make their point". I'm not saying this targetted at anyone, but I've got enough net-experience to know where the limits stand. One can sometimes read between the lines and discover someone you can trust, and as I said I'd rather trust Anet than you because I believe they didn't make a mistake. They made the game experience of many players better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Let's stop being so selfish. Even though the removal of the LS does not harm you, you want to keep it just because YOU can make enough cash?

Because you're not selfish? I think we'd better stop this non-discussion, you're neither ready, nor willing to listen to what we're saying and stubbornly sticking to your position, which may be explained by a number of things (greed, ignorance, trolling, screwing GW and Anet) though I don't know which ones. Believe me (or not), I'm no genius at this game but from wiki and this forum, there's much more than enough to get tons and tons of cash without becoming a "human bot". And what you'd like to buy with all that money escapes my understanding.

Quote:

They don't HAVE to. People don't HAVE to play Guild Wars at all. This is such a worthless claim. Just because people don't HAVE to have fun, doesn't mean they should not GET it.

You're the victim of "misreading", a common plague on the net. You've misread my statement, I was talking about FARMING, not HAVING FUN!

Gun Pierson · Apr 11, 2008, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

There's not really anything we can do here to alter a fundamental part of their vision for the game.

I believe that too, they won't give in. The problem is that they changed their view (and not only on this topic) several times over the last 3 years. Or they were not ready or experienced enough at Proph. release to implement several things from the start.

This resulted in pissing off several player groups in the comunity. People remember some game mechanics were a lot of fun. And we just discuss and argue amongst eachother now. In the meantime they gave us grind, another one of their fundamental views that changed.

At this point I think I overrated Anet, except for the art and production team lead by Jeff Strain. You're an artist Jeff, gratz!

I have no complaints about the network and technology team (lead by Patrick Wyatt) either, on the contrary. However, I hold Mike O'Brien and his design and content team responsible for what went wrong in Guild Wars. It just happens that this team has a major impact on the fun factor in this game. Step by step they made the game less fun by adding things like LS even though it's a good idea. Thanks but no thanks Mike.

If lootscaling was working at release we wouldn't even had this topic.

Trub · Apr 11, 2008, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

there's much more than enough to get tons and tons of cash without becoming a "human bot". And what you'd like to buy with all that money escapes my understanding.

That is something I would like explained further from the OP also.
I guess I am just not grasping what the complaint against LS REALLY is?
If a player has set a goal for a certain peice of armor, weapon, ect...one plays for it...saves, and gets a feeling of accomplishment..(gaming)
Just 'farming' to have alot of lewt, and plats.....why?

Fay Vert · Apr 11, 2008, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

From Gaile's own words (see my previous post), the Exemption list applies to LS, it is intrinsically part of LS.

Well, yes and no. Gaile's update was a PR page after the updates. Loot scaling was added in the 19th April update, prices of ectos soared immendiately, despite it being sneeked in as a little one-liner at the bottom of a massive update, people soon spotted that one. Only after this mess did they add the excemption list on the 20th along withe the PR spin machine. The excemption list was not intrinsically part of LS, it was damage limitation on a badly thought out nuts idea.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates:April_2007

Nude Nira · Apr 11, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

You just called yourself a bad player. Scads of other people are doing way better.

Rofl E-PEEN ALERT!!! No one is bad for not being able to make money, you're an idiot for thinking so. I recall you saying you've never solo farmed a day in your life? Then you must be a bad player, because you cannot solo farm. Maybe you shouldn't assume so much, because it makes you look like an fool, I doubt you've ever played with him, so how do you know how good/bad he is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

IMO, you are a bad farmer and should not be rewarded for your poor play. Instead, you should get better at GW. That way you'll be a decent player and get decent rewards for your decent play.

IMO, you are a bad person, with a ugly personality, you should not be rewarded in life. Instead, you should see a specialist that can help you, that way you'll become a decent person and get decent rewards in life. GTFO, you've overstayed your welcome here long enough.

Cab Tastic · Apr 11, 2008, 05:04 PM // 17:04

I'd hazzard a guess that most players who post on this forum are not poor. The I'm richer or I'm a better player than you comments are just juvenile.

Most experienced players know how to make money. For me its not about the money (although it would be nice to break even on lockpicks!) its about what is right for the game.

Nude Nira · Apr 11, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

Cab.... Cab Cab Cab Cab....

Please read pages 1 through 70-something of this thread. Not all are good points, but there's plenty of stuff out there.

Ok, so you are telling him to go find other people's points, because you have none?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

Besides, I wasn't intending to prove anything myself with my post. I was merely referring to Anet's statement that pre-LS solo farming was negatively impacting the economy. They didn't limit that statement by saying it was just the bots were the problem either.

Do your posts ever pove anything oher than silly insults you make up?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

They have ways and means of viewing the issue that us worm's eye view people do not. Therefore I do not have access to as many hard facts as you'd apparently like me to have....

See first quote...

Wow thank you for telling us that you have no facts about LS. What are you still doing in this topic? Insulting people to make yourself feel good or +1 posts?

CHannum · Apr 11, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

If lootscaling was working at release we wouldn't even had this topic.

True. However, as I mentioned somewhere in this mega-thread, my first experience with LS was all the way back in the days of Diablo, which was maintained by Blizzard in Diablo 2 and even WoW to a certain extent (size of party affects quality of drops, bigger the party, greater the odds of uber items falling). The game designers knew what LS was and just how beneficial it is to game balance because they'd implemented it for years working at Blizzard.

They thought they'd try something different in a game filled with TSDs.

Didn't really work as it turned out. Their anti farming code degraded the quality of the drops, but not the amount, and since that's only a relatively small effect on merch value, people were able to generate far more gold than they foresaw. So, when they were retooling the drop system for hard mode, they dropped the AFC for a solution they knew worked from past experience.

I have to think that the people complaining the loudest about LS have the least experience with these sorts of games. The only thing surprising is that they waited as long as they did to drop the AFC code in favor of good old party size based drops. That they softened the blow with an almost insanely generous exemption list is even more shocking, both because of the amount of people still complaining a year later but also because you can bet had they not been put in the scenario of implementing LS after the fact, the list would not be anywhere close to as generous. No matter what the reetkeevers and others want to believe, when it comes to farming, either for gold or rare items, GW is one of the most farmer friendly games out there.

majestikk · Apr 11, 2008, 06:35 PM // 18:35

remove it lol

cebalrai · Apr 11, 2008, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nude Nira

Rofl E-PEEN ALERT!!! No one is bad for not being able to make money, you're an idiot for thinking so.

I don't think he's "bad". I was just pointing out that if he has a hard time making money with his farming activities that if he improved he could make more money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nude Nira

Do your posts ever pove anything oher than silly insults you make up?

Since I didn't make an insult, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nude Nira

What are you still doing in this topic? Insulting people to make yourself feel good or +1 posts?

Again, I didn't insult him. Even Cab's response to my post didn't mention anything about being insulted. No reason for it to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nude Nira

Wow thank you for telling us that you have no facts about LS. What are you still doing in this topic?

Um, I have as many "facts" about LS as you. We're both looking at it from the same perspective as players. We don't have access to the same kind of date as Anet. One important thing that's key to making intelligent posts here is realizing that none of us have the complete story. Part of Anet's reasoning for LSing could very well be because of information we're not privy to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nude Nira

Ok, so you are telling him to go find other people's points, because you have none?

No I'm telling him to go find all the points already made - instead of waking up every morning and asking on this forum if any points were ever made in these 80 pages of debate. I'm not going to go through 80 pages of thread and assemble some mega post simply because you don't want to keep yourself up to date before you post. It's all been said, multiple times, by multiple people. Do your own research. It gets like groundhog day in here sometimes.... sheesh.....

And wait wait wait.... You call people "idiots, bad people, ugly personality, etc", because they suggested that possibly the issue is that the poster isn't as efficient as some other people. I never called him a bad person. I don't even know him and I certainly have no reason to personally attack him. Seems like an okay guy to me. We just don't agree on some goofy issue in some goofy game. Nothing more.

So I have two questions for you:

1) Why attack me personally?
2) Why are you saying I insulted Cab when I didn't?
3) Why are you making stuff up?

countesscorpula · Apr 11, 2008, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Yahoo! Rare items aren't affected by loot scaling, and if you want to make cash, they are how A-Net wants you to do it. So you can still make plenty of cash from those awesome gold items...

Thing is most of the gold items I get are r12 or r13, which no one seems interested in buying anyway. So all they are good for is ID points and merch fodder.

Personally, I honestly have tonnes more fun killing a mob and merching the piles and piles of "white crap", than standing in KC/LA/Kamadan spamming "WTS blah blah for XXk" for hours at a time.

The truth is that the trading system in the game sucks, even with the "party formation" window. You used to have the option of either
a) slogging your way through the deluge of WTS/WTBs or
b) solo farming for merchable crap (with the occasional choice drop).

Now you have the awesome options of
a) slog your way through the deluge of WTS/WTBs or
b) do without.

Not much of an improvement in my book.

Loviatar · Apr 11, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Only "advanced solo farming" (i.e., the humans playing to gather gold for RMT) was harming the economy.

your interpretation.

according to this little guy who judt happens to be............argue with this guy instead.

Quote:

Mike O'Brien, head of the Design Team, has provided us with some answers to this timely question.

Quote:

There are three ways that certain players earn more gold than the average. The first and most obvious way is that, because everyone plays the game differently, some players are able to find unusually profitable areas to hunt in, or tricky strategies for killing a lot of monsters quickly. The search for the most effective way to play can be a fun part of the game for everyone -- we all like to see how well our characters can do, and whether we can tweak our characters to be better than they were previously -- and so we at ArenaNet don’t consider this a problem unless it’s extreme. Although a very knowledgeable or tricky player may be able to earn gold twice as fast as the average, this tends not to create a significant problem, because prices for items in the player-driven economy will still stay at levels where normal players can afford them. But sometimes differences in the distribution of wealth can be extreme; a group of players can find ways to earn gold ten times as fast as the average player. In this case, prices can rise to a level where normal players can’t afford to trade for items anymore. Then we have a problem, and we need to adjust the game to bring wealth distribution back into normal ranges. We constantly monitor the game, so we know when a certain place or technique is being heavily exploited. When an issue like this becomes too severe, we make tweaks as necessary to bring things back in line.

MithranArkanere · Apr 11, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

And then we go back again to what I say in every 'gimme cash', 'gimm storage' or 'economy sucks' threads:
- We need the Xunlai Marketplace.

Rurik Jangeer · Apr 11, 2008, 08:24 PM // 20:24

I have a weakness to Chocolate Coca-Cola Cake, but I've been known to be adventurous. Vanilla, Chocolate, Strawberry, mixes, frozen, thawed. I'll take all comers.

Fay Vert · Apr 11, 2008, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

Since I didn't make an insult, I have no idea what you're talking about.
...

Again, I didn't insult anyone. So I have two questions for you:
...
2) Why are you saying I insulted Cab when I didn't?

You maybe don't realise, I'm sure most of us post in a terse way when in an argument, but many of your posts range from completely insulting to confrontational and rude, you may want to review what you have posted in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

Uninformed, ignorant people

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

People that whine because ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

You are utterly confused

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Originally Posted by cebalrai

See how self-centered you are? The world doesn't revolve around you, does it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

And you're just one schlep with an opinion

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

The above post is utter ignorance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

See how utterly ignorant you look when you assume things?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

Let me give you dense folk an example

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

Stop being a victim IMO and adapt?
"Whaaaa! I'm not going to buy any of Anet's products unless I can run the elite areas in the game with just one character.... WHAAAAA"

You're the absolute essence of what I'm talking about. Threatening to stop buying Anet's products because you can't do a stupid thing that was never intended is BABYISH. Maybe 5 year-oldish... but that's a stretch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

just a cross section of SOUR people, who come to forums to b1tch/whine/moan things they don't like

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Originally Posted by cebalrai

Awful, spoiled, crying children is what you sound like.

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Originally Posted by cebalrai

The people on this thread are spoiled and impatient.

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Originally Posted by cebalrai

It wasn't just bots that were the problem. It was real people (ie maybe you).

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Originally Posted by cebalrai

See how bad your logic fails at every turn?

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Originally Posted by cebalrai

Clueless people probably voted.

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Originally Posted by cebalrai

The rest of your post fails again.

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Originally Posted by cebalrai

Meaningless post.

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Originally Posted by cebalrai

What do you have to say about your whole argument being a total waste of pixels?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

You just called yourself a bad player. Scads of other people are doing way better.

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Originally Posted by cebalrai

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Troll.jpg

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Originally Posted by cebalrai

Not only does your logic fail (at every turn), you make stuff up.

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Originally Posted by cebalrai

...you're just polluting cyberspace.

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Originally Posted by cebalrai

What kind of bitter little monkey are you

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Originally Posted by cebalrai

Your logic is utter failure

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Originally Posted by cebalrai

What the fark? Your logic is atrocious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

That logic is terrible.

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Originally Posted by cebalrai

Unless you get paid for all this trolling.